Posts by Marvin Shilmer

51

Is this a discussion forum or a debating forum , which is it ?

by smiddy in

jw
friends

do you get confused sometimes whether this site is a discussion forum or a debating forum ?.

just asking.

whats your thoughts.. smiddy.

Marvin Shilmer

"If you wish to be persuasive, you must be diplomatic."

I don't think that's always true. Learned readers are not persuaded to accept conclusions of arguments based on diplomacy. Learned readers are persuaded to accept conclusions of an argument based on the veracity of premises in that argument, the level of inference of those premises and, finally, whether the form of argument is valid. If you have solid premises inferring what they are proposed to infer, and if those premises are composed in a known valid logical form of argument then diplomatically presented or not the learned reader will be persuaded.

That said, on forums like this worrying about persuading is a waste of time. I think at most we can hope to share good information and learn along they way. Sometimes what we learn is not what folks think was there to be learned, but it is learning nevertheless.

51

Is this a discussion forum or a debating forum , which is it ?

by smiddy in

jw
friends

do you get confused sometimes whether this site is a discussion forum or a debating forum ?.

just asking.

whats your thoughts.. smiddy.

Marvin Shilmer

I visit this web forum somewhat out of habit and sometimes to engage a topic.

Responsible and productive discussion and debate both require at least two essential things: presenting precise and challenging questions and answering precise challenging questions.

My experience here is that precise challenging questions often go unanswered, which makes responsible discussion and debate impossible. Very frustrating.

Accordingly, for me JWN seems to be more a gauge of sentiments than either a place to hold discussion or debate.

34

Congregation that have sent in money!

by DwainBowman in

in the past week, i have heard from a number of friends scattered all over the place.

a number of them are very upset over the congregation being required, to send in all monies over $4,000.

a number of these were kh's that were saving to buy land, and or build new kh's.

Marvin Shilmer

"I can't understand the basis that people expect to have money they donated, returned."

When substantial money is donated typically there is an intended use that compelled the donation. When use of the donated money is for something other than intended then hackles get raised because the person feels like they were misled and, basically, suckered for their money.

Otherwise I'm with you. If someone donates money to a cause without it being for something specific then they have little if any reason to complain about how it is used so long as it is used responsibly.

By the way, editing function like the quote feature are not working for me. I'm using IE 11.

34

Congregation that have sent in money!

by DwainBowman in

in the past week, i have heard from a number of friends scattered all over the place.

a number of them are very upset over the congregation being required, to send in all monies over $4,000.

a number of these were kh's that were saving to buy land, and or build new kh's.

Marvin Shilmer

Yes. I know one JW couple who two years ago donated upward of 30,000 USD to the local congregation for purposes of building a new hall. Now that money's been sent to Watchtower and the local congregation is told they will have their hall remodeled at an unspecified future time. There is quite a bit of astonishment at this and, as it was related to me, a sense of highway robbery.

11

Question related to the digestive tract of carnivores

by geevee in

i was raised as a jw from about the age of 2, my parents were baptized when i was 5 years old.. i always liked the thought in the song about a young boy leading all of these once viscous animals, that are now tame.... in some of the reading i have done, the digestive tracts of carnivores..meat eaters has a highly acidic stomach, with a short small intestine and a short large intestine [bowel].

a lot of apes are frugivores [fruit eaters] less acid, long small intestine and longer bowel.

the question: did god recreate these animals [carnivores] and change their digestive tracts after the noachian flood so that they could eat meat [other creatures] as the jw's believe that these animals only ate straw [herbivores] before the flood and that he will restore their original herbivore digestive tract after armageddon?.

Marvin Shilmer

"The question: Did God recreate these animals [carnivores] and change their digestive tracts after the Noachian flood so that they could eat meat [other creatures] as the jw's believe that these animals only ate straw [herbivores] before the flood and that he will restore their original herbivore digestive tract after Armageddon?"

Watchtower has sent mixed signals on this issue.

You might find the following two blog articles helpful. One contains a little recognized teaching coming from Watchtower. The other contains multiple references to scholarly information that most JWs are woefully unfamiliar with because Watchtower has meticulously avoided them. See:

Genesis and meat eating?

Blood doctrine – thrown under the bus

263

Poster country flags and privacy

by Simon in

the new forum originally had a little country flag next to each post showing the country that the post was made from based on the geoip encoding (the country the ip address is from).

before i switched over to the new site someone made an issue about it violating their privacy and i didn't want to complicate and confuse the switchover with policy debate at the same time as technical issues so removed the flags even though i disagreed.. someone has already requested it as a feature and i think it should be added back so i thought it's now time to open the discussion and get everyone's opinions.

first, the reason i think it should be shown:.

Marvin Shilmer

Simon,

I'm not trying to object to whatever it is you want to do with your own forum. But I do have a question, and my impression is you started this particular discussion to answer questions regarding your proposition.

What happens if today I'm in Greece and post here? Does it show the Greek flag? What if Tuesday of next week I'm in Italy? Does it show the flag of Italy?

My question is asked for my own circumstances, and I really don't care how many others do or do not have my set of circumstances. I'm not looking for sarcasm. I'm not looking for insult. I'd just like an answer to the question above.

Thanks in advance.

263

Poster country flags and privacy

by Simon in

the new forum originally had a little country flag next to each post showing the country that the post was made from based on the geoip encoding (the country the ip address is from).

before i switched over to the new site someone made an issue about it violating their privacy and i didn't want to complicate and confuse the switchover with policy debate at the same time as technical issues so removed the flags even though i disagreed.. someone has already requested it as a feature and i think it should be added back so i thought it's now time to open the discussion and get everyone's opinions.

first, the reason i think it should be shown:.

Marvin Shilmer

"As to posting while travelling, if its a concern just zip your paranoid thoughts up until you get back to a secure location."

Paranoid thoughts? Besty, you must not get around much. It's not paranoid to understand when you're a wanted person by those who'd love to ruin your family life under the banner of performing some sick Watchtower jihad! I still don't see an answer to the actual question I asked, either. Do you have one, or are you content to just play bully toward someone asking a serious question? I'm not interested in your petty sarcasm.

263

Poster country flags and privacy

by Simon in

the new forum originally had a little country flag next to each post showing the country that the post was made from based on the geoip encoding (the country the ip address is from).

before i switched over to the new site someone made an issue about it violating their privacy and i didn't want to complicate and confuse the switchover with policy debate at the same time as technical issues so removed the flags even though i disagreed.. someone has already requested it as a feature and i think it should be added back so i thought it's now time to open the discussion and get everyone's opinions.

first, the reason i think it should be shown:.

Marvin Shilmer

I travel a lot! What happens if today I'm in Germany and post here? Does it show the German flag? What if Tuesday of next week I'm in Italy? Does it show the flag of Italy? If in each case it shows the country we're posting from at the time we post then I'd say we have a problem with an automatic country flag showing up beside posts, at least for those of us who travel. It's one more thing I'd have to think about before posting here.

203

My Explanation of Why They Got it Wrong About Blood Using Only the NWT

by cofty in

10 " any israelite or any alien living among them who eats any bloodi will set my face against that person who eats blood and will cut him off from his people.

12 therefore i say to the israelites, "none of you may eat blood, nor may an alien living among you eat blood.

15 'anyone, whether native-born or alien, who eats anything found dead or torn by wild animals must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be ceremonially unclean till evening; then he will be clean.

Marvin Shilmer

Cofty you did a lot of work on this subject. Thanks for sharing.

Couple of thoughts:

Noah was not required to waste blood by pouring it out onto the ground. Noah was only to refrain from eating blood of animals he killed to eat. Also, and not that you've said otherwise, Noah would not have been able to extract blood from a living animal and eat it because he was not to eat an animal with its life (i.e., living).

The thought you shared about blood offered at a Jewish alter taken from an animal without killing the animal is intriguing. I'm not sure I've ever considered the ramifications of that, though I agree with you that such a sacrifice would have had no value under the Jewish system.

Watchtower leverages an idea that the substance of blood was something God held as a sacred substance. We can look at the Genesis account of Noah all day long and not find this. Noah was free to use blood from slaughtered animals to paint his barn or die his clothes and in neither case would he have broken the requirement laid up him.

Another fallacy of Watchtower reasoning is the idea that only after the flood were humans allowed to eat animal flesh, including blood by the way. Watchtower has gone out of its way to keep its followers from reading the very well researched information on this subject.

7

JW Doctor mis-Illustrates a Blood Doctrine

by Marvin Shilmer in

jw
friends

today i added a new article to my blog addressing an article written by a jw medical doctor in a regional medical journal.

it's part of an initiative giving attention to how licensed medical professionals among jws have dealt with the blood transfusion subject.

what they say, how they say it, and what they don't say are all very telling.

Marvin Shilmer

This same argument would naturally hold true for blood as well, and it seems that the Society has decided to acknowledge that.

I agree it holds true from a logical perspective, but as recently as this year Watchtower again trotted out this piece of admittedly bad information for consumption by the masses. It's disgraceful. Carl Sagan had it right when it comes to Watchtower!

One thing Watchtower NEVER lets get in the way is facts.